Go Back   Caravanning 4U > Information & New Members Area > Travel News For Campers and Caravanners

Notices

Travel News For Campers and Caravanners The latest travel news from around the UK.

Closed Thread
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
Unread 14th July 2009   #11
yung
Veteran Camper
 
yung's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Liverpool
Age: 68
Posts: 1,417
Images: 16
Thanks (For This Post): 0
Thanks (Total): 72
Rep Power: 88
My Mood
Happy

The tragedy is a toddler is dead, regardless who is at fault, is £25000 will make thing better? that is the issue.
__________________
Yung
Senator Virginia MTPLM 1499kg/Mondeo Mk 4 2.0l TDCI Kerbweight 1557 kg = 96% Ratio
Dec 28 ~ 2 Jan 2013 Edinburgh C C Edinburgh


yung is offline Top  
Unread 14th July 2009   #12
Andy G
C4U Super Mod
 
Andy G's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Rutland/Cambs Border
Age: 39
Posts: 1,587
Images: 7
Thanks (For This Post): 0
Thanks (Total): 107
Rep Power: 121
My Mood
Breezy

Having two small kids of my own its a hard one to decide what to say. We had a garden pond and got rid of it because of the kids and if it was one of mine then i would want to do somethong about it, but small children do need to be kept an eye on, but still why was the pond unfenced/netted. I think its a 50/50 thing and without seeing where the parants where in relation to the pond its hard to proportion blame - kids will be kids and go expolring. The other question is where was the pond and surely other people may have seen what happend. I know you can drown in a few inches but if there where people around - what happened?
__________________
2010 Volvo XC60Se 2.4 D5 AWD 205bhp

Followed by an Eldiss Avente 566 2012

If i have been of any help then please feel free to hit the thanks button - any thanks is gratefully received!






Andy G is offline Top  
Unread 14th July 2009   #13
kiwipete
Master Camper
 
kiwipete's Avatar
 

Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Was Kerikeri, Bay of Islands, now Napier, Hwake's Bay, New Zealand
Posts: 411
Images: 1
Thanks (For This Post): 0
Thanks (Total): 25
Rep Power: 39
Do we need to fence all rivers and seasides for the same reasons that have been discussed here? Come on people it's called responsible parenting.
Kiwipete
__________________
Pete and Norma
Benimar Mileo 243 motorhome
kiwipete is offline Top  
Unread 14th July 2009   #14
Bez65
Ultimate Camper
 
Bez65's Avatar
 

Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: preston lancashire
Age: 55
Posts: 746
Thanks (For This Post): 0
Thanks (Total): 20
Rep Power: 35
My Mood
Happy

i had a friend who fell off a swing she was 13.She went backwards she wasn't even going high the bump on the head killed her no blood just dead .It was just one of those things an accident.Yvonne
__________________
Kia Sedona 2.7 V6+ 2008 Xplore 596 (large Caravan of the year 2009)
Bez65 is offline Top  
Unread 14th July 2009   #15
swiftbev
Veteran Camper
 
swiftbev's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,010
Thanks (For This Post): 0
Thanks (Total): 18
Rep Power: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bez65 View Post
i had a friend who fell off a swing she was 13.She went backwards she wasn't even going high the bump on the head killed her no blood just dead .It was just one of those things an accident.Yvonne

Terribly sad. I would hazard a guess that this is the reason why the flooring in playgrounds is now made of spongy material - instead of concrete.Bev
swiftbev is offline Top  
Unread 14th July 2009   #16
swiftbev
Veteran Camper
 
swiftbev's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,010
Thanks (For This Post): 0
Thanks (Total): 18
Rep Power: 35
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiwipete View Post
Do we need to fence all rivers and seasides for the same reasons that have been discussed here? Come on people it's called responsible parenting.
Kiwipete
Responsible parenting - i agree with you entirely. But as i said in my earlier post - can anyone who has had children say that they have NEVER 'lost' them for a few seconds? Thats all it takes for a toddler to go missing. Unfortunately for this child, it found a pond and drowned. It is just irresponsible to ignore the fact that a pond can be dangerous for a toddler - and all it would have taken was a bit of netting. If it had been netted the child would have been found and probably told off for straying away. No damage done - but a lesson learned by both parents and child.

When your on a family site - you assume that there are necessary safety issues in place to help keep your children safe.Parents perhaps feel a little more relaxed. Putting netting over a pond is very basic common sense!

Obviously if your near a public river or the seaside - it is understood that netting will not be provided and therefore your even more vigilant - because you know there are more risks.

This is a tragedy - and a child has lot its life. All of this could have been avoided - had anyone with even a miniscule amount of common sense had put any thought into safety. Bev
swiftbev is offline Top  
Unread 14th July 2009   #17
Graham Hadfield
Elite Camper
 
Graham Hadfield's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Acklam, Tees-side
Posts: 949
Thanks (For This Post): 0
Thanks (Total): 88
Rep Power: 109
My point of view is of one who grew up in the countryside in the 1950s and 1960s, when we used to play where there were streams and ponds (both natural and man made) all around. We've also brought up two sons and have two grandchildren.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftbev View Post
Responsible parenting - i agree with you entirely. But as i said in my earlier post - can anyone who has had children say that they have NEVER 'lost' them for a few seconds? Thats all it takes for a toddler to go missing. Unfortunately for this child, it found a pond and drowned. It is just irresponsible to ignore the fact that a pond can be dangerous for a toddler - and all it would have taken was a bit of netting. If it had been netted the child would have been found and probably told off for straying away. No damage done - but a lesson learned by both parents and child.
I would not claim to say we had "never" lost the lads - that would be stupid. What we did do though, when they were small, and hadn't learned about such dangers, was keep them on reins. Restrictive maybe but it kept them away from other dangers (like running into the road or getting lost in supermarkets) as well as un-netted ponds.

We have a (small) pond in our back garden. When our grandchildren were little they never went near it without an adult holding their hand. They also had the dangers explained to them.

Quote:
When your on a family site - you assume that there are necessary safety issues in place to help keep your children safe.Parents perhaps feel a little more relaxed. Putting netting over a pond is very basic common sense!
I disagree. The site owners are catering for a wide range of people. What should be assumed is that parents will assess the site and take steps to put in place what they think is necessary for their particular children.

Quote:
Obviously if your near a public river or the seaside - it is understood that netting will not be provided and therefore your even more vigilant - because you know there are more risks.
Why should there be any difference for a man-made pond? Both are up front and obvious so the vigilance and risk assessment - for the parent - should be the same.

Quote:
This is a tragedy - and a child has lot its life. All of this could have been avoided - had anyone with even a miniscule amount of common sense had put any thought into safety. Bev
Totally agree that this is a tragedy. I note you say "anyone" - doesn't that include people who use facilities as well as those who provide them? If risks are not hidden then the user of the facility has a duty to assess and manage those risks.

We all have the capacity to decide not to expose ourselves to risk by deciding not to buy a pitch if we think a site is not safe.

Graham
__________________
Graham
Motorhome Friendly & Unfriendly Parking pages - www.motorhomeparking.co.uk
Graham Hadfield is offline Top  
Unread 15th July 2009   #18
swiftbev
Veteran Camper
 
swiftbev's Avatar
 

Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,010
Thanks (For This Post): 0
Thanks (Total): 18
Rep Power: 35
[QUOTE=Graham Hadfield;55248]My point of view is of one who grew up in the countryside in the 1950s and 1960s, when we used to play where there were streams and ponds (both natural and man made) all around. We've also brought up two sons and have two grandchildren.


I would not claim to say we had "never" lost the lads - that would be stupid. What we did do though, when they were small, and hadn't learned about such dangers, was keep them on reins. Restrictive maybe but it kept them away from other dangers (like running into the road or getting lost in supermarkets) as well as un-netted ponds.

We have a (small) pond in our back garden. When our grandchildren were little they never went near it without an adult holding their hand. They also had the dangers explained to them.


I disagree. The site owners are catering for a wide range of people. What should be assumed is that parents will assess the site and take steps to put in place what they think is necessary for their particular children.


Why should there be any difference for a man-made pond? Both are up front and obvious so the vigilance and risk assessment - for the parent - should be the same.


Totally agree that this is a tragedy. I note you say "anyone" - doesn't that include people who use facilities as well as those who provide them? If risks are not hidden then the user of the facility has a duty to assess and manage those risks.

We all have the capacity to decide not to expose ourselves to risk by deciding not to buy a pitch if we think a site is not safe.

Every parent in the land has 'lost' their child at some stage - even if it is just for 10 seconds. So, clearly there is always an element of risk involved when caring for a child. You say you yourself have 'lost' the lads on ocassion. On one of these occasions one of your lads could have 'found' a pond (just like this toddler did) - and could have drowned. Perhaps this is what happened to these poor parents?
They took their eyes off the child for a second - with disastrous consequences!
So it is by luck and good fortune that this has never happened to you or to me ( i have 3 children) or our children.

Yes - i used reins for my children - but there were ocassions when this just wasnt possible. Perhaps the parents were busy putting up the awning or similar and took their eyes off for a second. Perhaps the childs football had rolled down a field and it was trying to retrieve it. There are literally millions of reasons why this child had gone awol. And the parents (just like you or i) had taken their eyes off the child for a second or two.

My view about having a pond that is not netted is that it is quite simply irresponsible. You may hold your grandchildrens hands and tell them the dangers - and they will listen to you. But, on ocassion when you or their parents have taken your eyes off them for a second -(which we all agree does happen) - they will instantly forget all the dangers and rules that you have told them - because they are children/toddlers and have absolutely no fear of danger.

If we use the argument that it is a parents responsibility to assess the dangers of a site and make reasonable adjustments regarding their own children, clearly this is a flawed idea. We all know that some people are clearly irresponsible, and some people quite simply shouldnt be in charge of children! So, for the sake of these children whose parents clearly have no idea, it IS, in my view, up to the provider of the site/facilities to make sure that every safety proceedure is in place.
Obviously the dangers of water and children mixing are apparent. So the onus of responsibility and safety should be on the site owner as he is the one providing the facility. And it has to be assumed that a child drowning is a possiblity - therefore it is a 'foreseeable risk'.

There have been hundreds of deaths from children drowning in ponds over the last 10 years or so - so it is obviously a problem! Parents/carers DO take their eyes off children at times - and the worst does happen. So is it fair to say that just because a parent/carer has shown a degree of irresponsibility (we have both 'lost' our children at some stage)- it is nobodys fault - other than the parents? This doesnt make it allright. This makes it a social problem as we should all be responsible for the safety of young children. We cannot just dismiss this as a danger because the children dont belong to us. Hindsight is a wonderful thing - but it is just that - hindsight! We are extremely lucky that our children didnt fall into ponds. These parents and child were not so lucky. So we need to learn from these mistakes and put safety rules in place. And yes if that means covering every pond with netting - then that is what should happen. As i have said, this is what they do in America and other places.

I have no idea why people are so appalled by health and safety. We all now wear seatbelts because we now know the dangers of not wearing them! We all use (mostly all) stabilizers on our caravans - because we know the dangers of not using them. We all check the age of our caravan tyres - because we all know the dangers in not checking them. The list goes on and on....

Health and safety is there for a reason and we all benefit from it at some stage in our day/lives and i think we should embrace it - and if that means putting something as simple as netting around a pond - then why not? Bev
swiftbev is offline Top  
Unread 15th July 2009   #19
Graham Hadfield
Elite Camper
 
Graham Hadfield's Avatar
 

Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Acklam, Tees-side
Posts: 949
Thanks (For This Post): 0
Thanks (Total): 88
Rep Power: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by swiftbev View Post
Every parent in the land has 'lost' their child at some stage - even if it is just for 10 seconds. So, clearly there is always an element of risk involved when caring for a child. You say you yourself have 'lost' the lads on ocassion. On one of these occasions one of your lads could have 'found' a pond (just like this toddler did) - and could have drowned. Perhaps this is what happened to these poor parents?
They took their eyes off the child for a second - with disastrous consequences!
So it is by luck and good fortune that this has never happened to you or to me ( i have 3 children) or our children.

Yes - i used reins for my children - but there were ocassions when this just wasnt possible. Perhaps the parents were busy putting up the awning or similar and took their eyes off for a second. Perhaps the childs football had rolled down a field and it was trying to retrieve it. There are literally millions of reasons why this child had gone awol. And the parents (just like you or i) had taken their eyes off the child for a second or two.
Maybe there is an element of luck but the responsibility remains with the parent. We take on that responsibility, of our own free will, when we have children and nothing can take it away from us.

Quote:
My view about having a pond that is not netted is that it is quite simply irresponsible. You may hold your grandchildrens hands and tell them the dangers - and they will listen to you. But, on ocassion when you or their parents have taken your eyes off them for a second -(which we all agree does happen) - they will instantly forget all the dangers and rules that you have told them - because they are children/toddlers and have absolutely no fear of danger.
One of the elements of responsibility is to teach children to fear danger. If we (metaphorically) wrap them up in cotton wool all the time then they will never learn. We wouldn't expect a fishing lake (natural or man made) to be covered with a metal mesh grille (and it is that which would be required because flimsy netting would sag too much) because that would negate its usefulness. Why should we expect a pond, which is smaller, to be covered in such a manner?

Quote:
If we use the argument that it is a parents responsibility to assess the dangers of a site and make reasonable adjustments regarding their own children, clearly this is a flawed idea. We all know that some people are clearly irresponsible, and some people quite simply shouldnt be in charge of children! So, for the sake of these children whose parents clearly have no idea, it IS, in my view, up to the provider of the site/facilities to make sure that every safety proceedure is in place.
Obviously the dangers of water and children mixing are apparent. So the onus of responsibility and safety should be on the site owner as he is the one providing the facility. And it has to be assumed that a child drowning is a possiblity - therefore it is a 'foreseeable risk'.
If you took that argument to its logical conclusion we would all stop driving because an irresponsible parent might let their child run into the road. If the risk is foreseeable by the site owner it is also foreseeable by the parent. We can't all spend our lives nannying everyone else just in case they are irresponsible.

Quote:
There have been hundreds of deaths from children drowning in ponds over the last 10 years or so - so it is obviously a problem!
I don't know where your figures come from but would be interested to know. Ones I have seen - Here for example and Here suggest rather less than "hundreds". They also suggest that rather more children drown in domestic baths than in ponds. That is not to diminish the effect but does put it in context.

Quote:
Parents/carers DO take their eyes off children at times - and the worst does happen. So is it fair to say that just because a parent/carer has shown a degree of irresponsibility (we have both 'lost' our children at some stage)- it is nobodys fault - other than the parents? This doesnt make it allright. This makes it a social problem as we should all be responsible for the safety of young children. We cannot just dismiss this as a danger because the children dont belong to us. Hindsight is a wonderful thing - but it is just that - hindsight! We are extremely lucky that our children didnt fall into ponds. These parents and child were not so lucky. So we need to learn from these mistakes and put safety rules in place. And yes if that means covering every pond with netting - then that is what should happen. As i have said, this is what they do in America and other places.
Another effective rule would be to ban families with children under a given age from going onto camp sites where there is water - and don't forget to include rivers, sea beaches etc as well. Individual parents have complete freedom to do that for themselves of course.

Quote:
I have no idea why people are so appalled by health and safety. We all now wear seatbelts because we now know the dangers of not wearing them! We all use (mostly all) stabilizers on our caravans - because we know the dangers of not using them. We all check the age of our caravan tyres - because we all know the dangers in not checking them. The list goes on and on....

Health and safety is there for a reason and we all benefit from it at some stage in our day/lives and i think we should embrace it - and if that means putting something as simple as netting around a pond - then why not? Bev
I am in no way appalled by health & safety but, as I pointed out in my first post on this thread, health & safety is a two-way thing. Users of facilities have responsibilities as well as the providers of those facilities.

The death of this child was an appalling tragedy but that does not alter the fact that people must start to take responsibility for themselves and their children as used to happen in years gone by. See Here for an MP's view.

Graham
__________________
Graham
Motorhome Friendly & Unfriendly Parking pages - www.motorhomeparking.co.uk
Graham Hadfield is offline Top  
Unread 15th July 2009   #20
yung
Veteran Camper
 
yung's Avatar
 

Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Liverpool
Age: 68
Posts: 1,417
Images: 16
Thanks (For This Post): 0
Thanks (Total): 72
Rep Power: 88
My Mood
Happy

And to conclude since the creation of health & Safety the onus of responsibilty has shifted from individual to compensation and blame culture. don't get me wrong heath &safety has it good side in preventing accidents but in some cases it has gone too far.
__________________
Yung
Senator Virginia MTPLM 1499kg/Mondeo Mk 4 2.0l TDCI Kerbweight 1557 kg = 96% Ratio
Dec 28 ~ 2 Jan 2013 Edinburgh C C Edinburgh


yung is offline Top  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Tags
death, parents, pond, repay, £25k

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Hunt veteran's caravan death Paulw Travel News For Campers and Caravanners 0 20th April 2009 07:25 PM


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 03:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2005 - 2021, Caravanning4u.co.uk

DTO Garage vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.